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	<title>Comments on: Better Connected, Better Results: Table Headers</title>
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	<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/</link>
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	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 02:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: kral oyun</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-46856</link>
		<dc:creator>kral oyun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2007 10:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-46856</guid>
		<description>Would it be useful if UAs could figure out which cells are headers even if they aren’t marked up with ? Much like yourselves, the majority of tables I come across don’t use it (yet).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would it be useful if UAs could figure out which cells are headers even if they aren’t marked up with ? Much like yourselves, the majority of tables I come across don’t use it (yet).</p>
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		<title>By: Bim</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-41089</link>
		<dc:creator>Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 10:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-41089</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the kind words again Ben.

To answer the questions in your blog post :

&lt;blockquote&gt;"My research is to see what authors are doing and whether hints like
&#60;td&#62;&#60;b&#62; are reliable enough for Hypertext Markup Language 5 to specify an algorithm which User Agents would be expected to implement. "  &lt;/blockquote&gt;


Currently  browsers do display this as bold text inside a table cell.  However, screen readers don't recognise styles.  If this were to be used instead of &#60;th&#62;, it may be years beforea ll screen readers treated this as a header and  all, or most, screen reader users had upgraded to the version that did support it. I'm also not sure how a screen reader would be able to tell the difference between an HTML 4  page using this just for styling and  an HTML 5 page using it as headers.

Your other question:

&lt;blockquote&gt;"While I'm here, do you find that treating the first row as column headers and the first column as row headers works a lot of the time? If it does, that might help figure out tables which don't even use &#60;td&#62;&#60;b&#62;."&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Most of the time yes, the topmost row and left-hand column are the logical headers, but this is the point of this article.  What happens when they aren't?  We can't really expect the sighted world to change it's natural order, so that the left-hand column always held the logical headers.

Hope I haven't misunderstood the points you were making Ben, keep up the good work.  
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the kind words again Ben.</p>
<p>To answer the questions in your blog post :</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;My research is to see what authors are doing and whether hints like<br />
&lt;td&gt;&lt;b&gt; are reliable enough for Hypertext Markup Language 5 to specify an algorithm which User Agents would be expected to implement. &#8221;  </p></blockquote>
<p>Currently  browsers do display this as bold text inside a table cell.  However, screen readers don&#8217;t recognise styles.  If this were to be used instead of &lt;th&gt;, it may be years beforea ll screen readers treated this as a header and  all, or most, screen reader users had upgraded to the version that did support it. I&#8217;m also not sure how a screen reader would be able to tell the difference between an HTML 4  page using this just for styling and  an HTML 5 page using it as headers.</p>
<p>Your other question:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;While I&#8217;m here, do you find that treating the first row as column headers and the first column as row headers works a lot of the time? If it does, that might help figure out tables which don&#8217;t even use &lt;td&gt;&lt;b&gt;.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Most of the time yes, the topmost row and left-hand column are the logical headers, but this is the point of this article.  What happens when they aren&#8217;t?  We can&#8217;t really expect the sighted world to change it&#8217;s natural order, so that the left-hand column always held the logical headers.</p>
<p>Hope I haven&#8217;t misunderstood the points you were making Ben, keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben 'Cerbera' Millard</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-38947</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben 'Cerbera' Millard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-38947</guid>
		<description>By the way, this is my favourite article about why users need table headers to be identified. Just the right amount of detail, aided by examples and step-by-step summaries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, this is my favourite article about why users need table headers to be identified. Just the right amount of detail, aided by examples and step-by-step summaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben 'Cerbera' Millard</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-38636</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben 'Cerbera' Millard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 19:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-38636</guid>
		<description>My reply wouldn't go through, so I've made it at &lt;a href="http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2007/10#day06" rel="nofollow"&gt;How to Disarm an Inaccessible Data Table&lt;/a&gt;. Discussion should continue in these comments, since this is where the original article is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reply wouldn&#8217;t go through, so I&#8217;ve made it at <a href="http://projectcerbera.com/blog/2007/10#day06" rel="nofollow">How to Disarm an Inaccessible Data Table</a>. Discussion should continue in these comments, since this is where the original article is.</p>
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		<title>By: Bim</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-38069</link>
		<dc:creator>Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-38069</guid>
		<description>I can't say how other screen readers handle tables Ben.  I've tried learning others but haven't found enough time to master them.  Perhaps other screen reader users could answer your first question.

I don't think user agents could reliably choose which cells contain headers though.  It's a decision that needs to be based on knowledge, which is why I suggest that authors refer to the person who compiled the table, if the  key information isn't obvious.  

Would the user agent "make decisions" based on the number of characters in the data cell, or position, for instance? These could be programmatically determined, but could so easily identify false "key" data and cause more confusion than they cure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t say how other screen readers handle tables Ben.  I&#8217;ve tried learning others but haven&#8217;t found enough time to master them.  Perhaps other screen reader users could answer your first question.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think user agents could reliably choose which cells contain headers though.  It&#8217;s a decision that needs to be based on knowledge, which is why I suggest that authors refer to the person who compiled the table, if the  key information isn&#8217;t obvious.  </p>
<p>Would the user agent &#8220;make decisions&#8221; based on the number of characters in the data cell, or position, for instance? These could be programmatically determined, but could so easily identify false &#8220;key&#8221; data and cause more confusion than they cure.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben 'Cerbera' Millard</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-37727</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben 'Cerbera' Millard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/better-connected/better-connected-better-results-table-headers/#comment-37727</guid>
		<description>I've &lt;a href="http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=56023#56023" rel="nofollow"&gt;mentioned this at Accessify Forum&lt;/a&gt;, in the thread about tables in HTML5. Do you find similar results in other screen readers?

Would it be useful if UAs could figure out which cells are headers even if they aren't marked up with &lt;code&gt;&#60;th&#62;&lt;/code&gt;? Much like yourselves, the majority of &lt;a href="http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/readme.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;tables I come across don't use it (yet).&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve <a href="http://www.accessifyforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=56023#56023" rel="nofollow">mentioned this at Accessify Forum</a>, in the thread about tables in HTML5. Do you find similar results in other screen readers?</p>
<p>Would it be useful if UAs could figure out which cells are headers even if they aren&#8217;t marked up with <code>&lt;th&gt;</code>? Much like yourselves, the majority of <a href="http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/readme.html" rel="nofollow">tables I come across don&#8217;t use it (yet).</a></p>
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