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	<title>Comments on: Too much accessibility - TITLE attributes</title>
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	<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Fri,  5 Sep 2008 23:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: nick cumber</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-88192</link>
		<dc:creator>nick cumber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 12:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-88192</guid>
		<description>What you say is mostly logical - however you may not realise that many clients rely on 3rd party audits like yourself and trust the outcome of a paid audit - and some are less concerned with real usability than others. One i came across is 'sitemorse' product which will automatically fail pages where hyperlinks have no title tag - so then the supplier is left with an argument to solve over who is correct. 

Some XHTML validators will fail many sites if title tags are omitted. 

The title attribute can also be a useful tool tip for the user (who may not need accessibility) who needs usability tips (e.g: silver surfers - those new to the web etc) - Web sites have different designs (so inconsistent with each other) in particular hyperlinks underline decoration. Some underlined pre-rollover and vice-versa, so the title is useful where the default hyperlink CSS style may not be so obvious to some.

All your comments are mostly related to disability, which is understandable. For me - alt is for alternative for image - title is a tool tip in my experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you say is mostly logical - however you may not realise that many clients rely on 3rd party audits like yourself and trust the outcome of a paid audit - and some are less concerned with real usability than others. One i came across is &#8217;sitemorse&#8217; product which will automatically fail pages where hyperlinks have no title tag - so then the supplier is left with an argument to solve over who is correct. </p>
<p>Some XHTML validators will fail many sites if title tags are omitted. </p>
<p>The title attribute can also be a useful tool tip for the user (who may not need accessibility) who needs usability tips (e.g: silver surfers - those new to the web etc) - Web sites have different designs (so inconsistent with each other) in particular hyperlinks underline decoration. Some underlined pre-rollover and vice-versa, so the title is useful where the default hyperlink CSS style may not be so obvious to some.</p>
<p>All your comments are mostly related to disability, which is understandable. For me - alt is for alternative for image - title is a tool tip in my experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-76853</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-76853</guid>
		<description>I am blown away with this whole article, in a good way. I have
to really consider my future design work and instigate where
and how we now use the TITLE attribute.

I really want to make the sites I work on as accessible as possible
and having read this, I now know I have been doing too much. The 
irony is that I had just coded a page with TITLE in every text link
and then thought I would check on it's correct usage.

I am going to remove them now, even from images unless they are
absolutey needed. It would be good to have a check list to follow,
based on this article and not the W3C guideline, on how we should
be applying TITLE for humans and not some standards checker.

Currently (before my mass link TITLE mission I have just stopped)
I was under the impression that all images should have ALT. This
is to replicate any text on that particular image. TITLE should be
used to expand that description if needed. For example....

I have been in e-commerce for over 5 years now and during that
time the the ALT has always been needed and more recently the
TITLE has been encouraged, even though it has always been
there. One of the biggest things, based on the rules I thought
I knew is 'Buy' buttons. This is how I currently do it:

 where BOOK TITLE is
the actual book we want to sell.

Based on this article I should have:


Is this correct? What about the LONGDESC attribute. Does this get annoying too?

Unfortunately we do have many links on our site that say "View
more" and this is where I was at before this article. I am now going
down the route of the invisible text next to these for better clarity
but any advise on the ALT verses TITLE on images would be a
great help.

If you want some help setting out a guidline for the use of TITLE I
would be more than happy to help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am blown away with this whole article, in a good way. I have<br />
to really consider my future design work and instigate where<br />
and how we now use the TITLE attribute.</p>
<p>I really want to make the sites I work on as accessible as possible<br />
and having read this, I now know I have been doing too much. The<br />
irony is that I had just coded a page with TITLE in every text link<br />
and then thought I would check on it&#8217;s correct usage.</p>
<p>I am going to remove them now, even from images unless they are<br />
absolutey needed. It would be good to have a check list to follow,<br />
based on this article and not the W3C guideline, on how we should<br />
be applying TITLE for humans and not some standards checker.</p>
<p>Currently (before my mass link TITLE mission I have just stopped)<br />
I was under the impression that all images should have ALT. This<br />
is to replicate any text on that particular image. TITLE should be<br />
used to expand that description if needed. For example&#8230;.</p>
<p>I have been in e-commerce for over 5 years now and during that<br />
time the the ALT has always been needed and more recently the<br />
TITLE has been encouraged, even though it has always been<br />
there. One of the biggest things, based on the rules I thought<br />
I knew is &#8216;Buy&#8217; buttons. This is how I currently do it:</p>
<p> where BOOK TITLE is<br />
the actual book we want to sell.</p>
<p>Based on this article I should have:</p>
<p>Is this correct? What about the LONGDESC attribute. Does this get annoying too?</p>
<p>Unfortunately we do have many links on our site that say &#8220;View<br />
more&#8221; and this is where I was at before this article. I am now going<br />
down the route of the invisible text next to these for better clarity<br />
but any advise on the ALT verses TITLE on images would be a<br />
great help.</p>
<p>If you want some help setting out a guidline for the use of TITLE I<br />
would be more than happy to help.</p>
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		<title>By: Bim</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-72099</link>
		<dc:creator>Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2008 09:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-72099</guid>
		<description>Glad it's helped Martin.  From a screen reader user's perspective, it would be good to see  an end to "Read more" links. Although, if they follow a full and clear link, there is an argument that they are useful for dyslexic people.  However, I haven't been able to find any research to either support or refute this argument.  Has anyone else?

Bim</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad it&#8217;s helped Martin.  From a screen reader user&#8217;s perspective, it would be good to see  an end to &#8220;Read more&#8221; links. Although, if they follow a full and clear link, there is an argument that they are useful for dyslexic people.  However, I haven&#8217;t been able to find any research to either support or refute this argument.  Has anyone else?</p>
<p>Bim</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Wake</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-71898</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Wake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 11:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-71898</guid>
		<description>Thanks Bim - this is a question that's been floating around in our thinking for a while. We train people in writing for the web (as well as doing it ourselves), and one of the standard pieces of advice we give is  or "Read More Considered Harmful" -- unique anchor text for every separate target page.

This is often difficult to implement for content-led sites like those of magazines and newspapers, who often have a CMS that requires blurb text on a front page plus link text. If you have trailer text for ten stories on your home page, how many ways are there of saying "read the rest of this article"?

Some more web-savvy writers have asked if it's OK to repeat anchor text if the TITLE text is different -- glad we can deny them that get-out! If their CMS allows, our advice is usually to write intuitive, scannable headlines and make those the links -- I'd say that convention is well enough established now that users don't need a separate link (this is what BBC News now does). 

Martin</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Bim - this is a question that&#8217;s been floating around in our thinking for a while. We train people in writing for the web (as well as doing it ourselves), and one of the standard pieces of advice we give is  or &#8220;Read More Considered Harmful&#8221; &#8212; unique anchor text for every separate target page.</p>
<p>This is often difficult to implement for content-led sites like those of magazines and newspapers, who often have a CMS that requires blurb text on a front page plus link text. If you have trailer text for ten stories on your home page, how many ways are there of saying &#8220;read the rest of this article&#8221;?</p>
<p>Some more web-savvy writers have asked if it&#8217;s OK to repeat anchor text if the TITLE text is different &#8212; glad we can deny them that get-out! If their CMS allows, our advice is usually to write intuitive, scannable headlines and make those the links &#8212; I&#8217;d say that convention is well enough established now that users don&#8217;t need a separate link (this is what BBC News now does). </p>
<p>Martin</p>
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		<title>By: Bim</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-62858</link>
		<dc:creator>Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 11:27:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-62858</guid>
		<description>Hi Peter,  I'm not sure that I understand how a potentially 
confusing repetition  can be better than clear static link text.  The 
user can easily get the link read again, if they aren't sure where it 
leads.  But the convergence of a link, for instance to, "About us", 
with an identical TITLE attribute is likely to be announced 
as, "About usabout us". The only way to avoid this is to include 
punctuation and spaces in the TITLE, such as "About us. ".  
Punctuation in "tooltip" text is so rare, that there's a greater 
likelihood of increasing, rather than reducing confusion.

Where TITLE attributes may be useful, is in providing a call to 
action, or expansion of the link text.  For instance a link to "Sport" 
is self-explanatory, but can mean different things depending on the 
sporting season, or the content being provided on the site. Here 
the TITLE "attribute could be useful, identifying the sports being 
covered.  Then it would be explaining the "Sport" link, without   
confusion or repetition, although the link text, "Sport",  is accurate 
in itself.  So there are winners, but no losers. 

I do take your point on the width of text in our Blog though, and 
thank you for raising it.  We've started working on a way to get this 
under  control, and hope to have it changed in the near future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Peter,  I&#8217;m not sure that I understand how a potentially<br />
confusing repetition  can be better than clear static link text.  The<br />
user can easily get the link read again, if they aren&#8217;t sure where it<br />
leads.  But the convergence of a link, for instance to, &#8220;About us&#8221;,<br />
with an identical TITLE attribute is likely to be announced<br />
as, &#8220;About usabout us&#8221;. The only way to avoid this is to include<br />
punctuation and spaces in the TITLE, such as &#8220;About us. &#8220;.<br />
Punctuation in &#8220;tooltip&#8221; text is so rare, that there&#8217;s a greater<br />
likelihood of increasing, rather than reducing confusion.</p>
<p>Where TITLE attributes may be useful, is in providing a call to<br />
action, or expansion of the link text.  For instance a link to &#8220;Sport&#8221;<br />
is self-explanatory, but can mean different things depending on the<br />
sporting season, or the content being provided on the site. Here<br />
the TITLE &#8220;attribute could be useful, identifying the sports being<br />
covered.  Then it would be explaining the &#8220;Sport&#8221; link, without<br />
confusion or repetition, although the link text, &#8220;Sport&#8221;,  is accurate<br />
in itself.  So there are winners, but no losers. </p>
<p>I do take your point on the width of text in our Blog though, and<br />
thank you for raising it.  We&#8217;ve started working on a way to get this<br />
under  control, and hope to have it changed in the near future.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Peter Stevens</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-61295</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 00:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-61295</guid>
		<description>Hello Folks,
I'm not convinced by this article at all, I'm sorry. For me accessibility
is about balancing functionality with practicality. For someone using
a screen reader with disabled hands and suffering from short-term 
memory loss, repitition is vital!

Often there is a delay in deciding whether or not to follow that link, 
so those few seconds whilst the "confirmation" of where the link 
leads becomes vital! 

There is one really peeving thing about _this_ page! Good readability
is limiting lines of text to around 12 to 15 per line. That provides the 
ability to speed-read (with assimilation) and does not hurt the eyes 
of people with reasonable vision have it badly hampered by trying 
to follow long lines of text right across the screen. 
...and No! resizing the browser window is _not_ an option.

Both the article and this page layout demonstrate excuses for not
putting enough thought into the design process. Expending a bit of
thought into how title texts are composed is by far better than just
leaving them out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Folks,<br />
I&#8217;m not convinced by this article at all, I&#8217;m sorry. For me accessibility<br />
is about balancing functionality with practicality. For someone using<br />
a screen reader with disabled hands and suffering from short-term<br />
memory loss, repitition is vital!</p>
<p>Often there is a delay in deciding whether or not to follow that link,<br />
so those few seconds whilst the &#8220;confirmation&#8221; of where the link<br />
leads becomes vital! </p>
<p>There is one really peeving thing about _this_ page! Good readability<br />
is limiting lines of text to around 12 to 15 per line. That provides the<br />
ability to speed-read (with assimilation) and does not hurt the eyes<br />
of people with reasonable vision have it badly hampered by trying<br />
to follow long lines of text right across the screen.<br />
&#8230;and No! resizing the browser window is _not_ an option.</p>
<p>Both the article and this page layout demonstrate excuses for not<br />
putting enough thought into the design process. Expending a bit of<br />
thought into how title texts are composed is by far better than just<br />
leaving them out.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Isotoma</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-56959</link>
		<dc:creator>Isotoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 09:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-56959</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;In praise of invisible text...&lt;/strong&gt;

As a website accessibility feature, invisible text has long been accepted as one of the most helpful things you can do. This is text that is invisible on screen, but read out in screen readers, using CSS like the off-left......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>In praise of invisible text&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>As a website accessibility feature, invisible text has long been accepted as one of the most helpful things you can do. This is text that is invisible on screen, but read out in screen readers, using CSS like the off-left&#8230;&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-55036</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 12:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-55036</guid>
		<description>Bim - just to add to the resources you've pointed Matt in the direction of already, there is an open source screen reader available called Non Visual Desktop Access or NVDA for short. NVDA can be useful for developers who want to get a feel for using a screen reader on their sites. There is an interesting article on &lt;a href="http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=23" rel="nofollow"&gt;NVDA on the Paciello Group blog&lt;/a&gt; which discusses how NVDA compares to JAWS and Window Eyes, particularly when dealing with updating content without reloading the page. Reading this, it looks like NVDA is particularly useful for developers who want to test how accessible their dynamic content is to screen reader users.

Here are the links to the relevant information and downloads:

&lt;a href="http://www.nvda-project.org/index.cgi" rel="nofollow"&gt;NVDA Project Home&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href="http://www.nvda-project.org/download.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;NVDA Download&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;a href="http://www.nvda-project.org/documentation.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;NVDA Documentation&lt;/a&gt;

Hope that helps as well Matt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bim - just to add to the resources you&#8217;ve pointed Matt in the direction of already, there is an open source screen reader available called Non Visual Desktop Access or NVDA for short. NVDA can be useful for developers who want to get a feel for using a screen reader on their sites. There is an interesting article on <a href="http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=23" rel="nofollow">NVDA on the Paciello Group blog</a> which discusses how NVDA compares to JAWS and Window Eyes, particularly when dealing with updating content without reloading the page. Reading this, it looks like NVDA is particularly useful for developers who want to test how accessible their dynamic content is to screen reader users.</p>
<p>Here are the links to the relevant information and downloads:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nvda-project.org/index.cgi" rel="nofollow">NVDA Project Home</a><br />
<a href="http://www.nvda-project.org/download.html" rel="nofollow">NVDA Download</a><br />
<a href="http://www.nvda-project.org/documentation.html" rel="nofollow">NVDA Documentation</a></p>
<p>Hope that helps as well Matt.</p>
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		<title>By: Bim</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-55030</link>
		<dc:creator>Bim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-55030</guid>
		<description>I feel you're right Matt.   Fortunately there don't seem to be so many sites that have their http: on show these days.  It'll be good to know you're joining the discrete linkers.  :)

Firevox voicing plugin for Firefox, gives a reasonable simulation of a screen reader, or if you can limit your time listening to your site to 40 minutes, you could download the trial version of JAWS from Freedom Scientific.  Not the 30 day download, the other one, it works forever but only for 40 minutes at a time, then you have to reboot before you can use it again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel you&#8217;re right Matt.   Fortunately there don&#8217;t seem to be so many sites that have their http: on show these days.  It&#8217;ll be good to know you&#8217;re joining the discrete linkers.  :)</p>
<p>Firevox voicing plugin for Firefox, gives a reasonable simulation of a screen reader, or if you can limit your time listening to your site to 40 minutes, you could download the trial version of JAWS from Freedom Scientific.  Not the 30 day download, the other one, it works forever but only for 40 minutes at a time, then you have to reboot before you can use it again.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-55025</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2008 08:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/articles/too-much-accessibility/too-much-accessibility-title-attributes/#comment-55025</guid>
		<description>Point taken when you put it like that! 

I suppose when you actually sit back and think about it there isn't a reason to see it online, other than that's what people have always done! If people are that interested in the URI they can click on the link and get it from the browser....time for a change I feel.

In addition time to look for an open source screen reader, we are just in the process of rebuilding our test machine with more up-to-date browsers, etc. While it's great to talk about these things I'm not sure I can fully appreciate it till I turn the monitor off and listen to what the page it saying.

Thanks again</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point taken when you put it like that! </p>
<p>I suppose when you actually sit back and think about it there isn&#8217;t a reason to see it online, other than that&#8217;s what people have always done! If people are that interested in the URI they can click on the link and get it from the browser&#8230;.time for a change I feel.</p>
<p>In addition time to look for an open source screen reader, we are just in the process of rebuilding our test machine with more up-to-date browsers, etc. While it&#8217;s great to talk about these things I&#8217;m not sure I can fully appreciate it till I turn the monitor off and listen to what the page it saying.</p>
<p>Thanks again</p>
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