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	<title>Comments on: CAPTCHA - if your name&#8217;s not down you&#8217;re not coming in.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed,  7 Jan 2009 02:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mark S</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-111077</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 11:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-111077</guid>
		<description>Captchas are ineffective and make your web-site pages that have forms unfriendly to your visitors.

Use plain html to protect forms from automated submission. It works and has no overhead whatsoever to the forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Captchas are ineffective and make your web-site pages that have forms unfriendly to your visitors.</p>
<p>Use plain html to protect forms from automated submission. It works and has no overhead whatsoever to the forms.</p>
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		<title>By: WebVisum</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-101147</link>
		<dc:creator>WebVisum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-101147</guid>
		<description>Also be sure to take a look at how WebVisum helps blind and visually impaired users overcome the graphical CAPTCHA.

Cheers,
The WebVisum team</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also be sure to take a look at how WebVisum helps blind and visually impaired users overcome the graphical CAPTCHA.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
The WebVisum team</p>
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		<title>By: Movies Clips</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-68850</link>
		<dc:creator>Movies Clips</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 10:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-68850</guid>
		<description>Hi,Thanks for the informative post Henny. These things are a real nuisance and crop up everywhere, though I suspect you may be right in that there is no easy solution. I came across an example of a website which uses a trivia question to weed out spammers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,Thanks for the informative post Henny. These things are a real nuisance and crop up everywhere, though I suspect you may be right in that there is no easy solution. I came across an example of a website which uses a trivia question to weed out spammers.</p>
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		<title>By: imam hossain</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-62676</link>
		<dc:creator>imam hossain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-62676</guid>
		<description>need captcha data entry work</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>need captcha data entry work</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-54937</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 18:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-54937</guid>
		<description>Great post, I believe capchas should now be left as old technology and more work done to improve overal net security.

I'm not a security expert, but as a web developer am aware of the issues and agree a good spam filter is far better than capchas! Also simple things like email varification for login accounts can help. Time filters preventing repeat posts in short intervals from a single user is another technique I've seen used.

My bank uses both user defined password and random questions pre-defined by the user on account setup. The account setup requires both email varification and postal address varification. I'm sure there is much research being done from finance institutes which could be useful for other web applications.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, I believe capchas should now be left as old technology and more work done to improve overal net security.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a security expert, but as a web developer am aware of the issues and agree a good spam filter is far better than capchas! Also simple things like email varification for login accounts can help. Time filters preventing repeat posts in short intervals from a single user is another technique I&#8217;ve seen used.</p>
<p>My bank uses both user defined password and random questions pre-defined by the user on account setup. The account setup requires both email varification and postal address varification. I&#8217;m sure there is much research being done from finance institutes which could be useful for other web applications.</p>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-49615</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 11:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-49615</guid>
		<description>Hi,Thanks for the informative post Henny.  These things are a real nuisance and crop up everywhere, though I suspect you may be right in that there is no easy solution.  I came across an example of a website which uses a trivia question to weed out spammers.  Ok, so the Oxford journal of Early Music may not be top of everyone's list, but it's a start.  See the link below for more.
Cheers, James 
    http://em.oxfordjournals.org/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,Thanks for the informative post Henny.  These things are a real nuisance and crop up everywhere, though I suspect you may be right in that there is no easy solution.  I came across an example of a website which uses a trivia question to weed out spammers.  Ok, so the Oxford journal of Early Music may not be top of everyone&#8217;s list, but it&#8217;s a start.  See the link below for more.<br />
Cheers, James<br />
    <a href="http://em.oxfordjournals.org/" rel="nofollow">http://em.oxfordjournals.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tatworth</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-46943</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 08:21:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-46943</guid>
		<description>Rather than criticise the use of CAPTCHA, why not sponsor some open source heuristic software in C#, VB.NET and other languages used for web sites.  It is all well and good to say that web sites should be accessible, however there is a distinct lack of advice to the various web page communities such as ASP.NET and PHP.  Currently developers have to work by trial and error backwards from the web pages.  There are such warnings such as WCAG from VS2005 for ASP.NET web pages, but these tend tend to woefully obscure and lacking in advice on how to correct the problem. 
I do appreciate the hard work put into this site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than criticise the use of CAPTCHA, why not sponsor some open source heuristic software in C#, VB.NET and other languages used for web sites.  It is all well and good to say that web sites should be accessible, however there is a distinct lack of advice to the various web page communities such as ASP.NET and PHP.  Currently developers have to work by trial and error backwards from the web pages.  There are such warnings such as WCAG from VS2005 for ASP.NET web pages, but these tend tend to woefully obscure and lacking in advice on how to correct the problem.<br />
I do appreciate the hard work put into this site.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-43924</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-43924</guid>
		<description>I use a heuristic spam blocker on my blog, it stops about 99.9% of spam and holds posts it's not sure about in a moderation cue, this works for me - doesn't block users with assistive technologies and is almost totally transparent (apart from the two or three posts a month in the cue I have to filter manually)

it's this one.

http://unknowngenius.com/blog/wordpress/spam-karma/

it works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I use a heuristic spam blocker on my blog, it stops about 99.9% of spam and holds posts it&#8217;s not sure about in a moderation cue, this works for me - doesn&#8217;t block users with assistive technologies and is almost totally transparent (apart from the two or three posts a month in the cue I have to filter manually)</p>
<p>it&#8217;s this one.</p>
<p><a href="http://unknowngenius.com/blog/wordpress/spam-karma/" rel="nofollow">http://unknowngenius.com/blog/wordpress/spam-karma/</a></p>
<p>it works.</p>
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		<title>By: Henny</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-41840</link>
		<dc:creator>Henny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-41840</guid>
		<description>Hi Karl,

Not being a security specialist and understanding all the issues, implications and problems involved in securing a system I'm not sure I can give a fully balanced reply (if there are any security bods out there I'd be interested to hear your views). What I can say is that from an accessibility perspective CAPTCHA doesn't seem to be doing it for the user regardless of if you have a disability or not - Wilco's comments about usability duly noted.

The problems really lie in the very essence of what CAPTCHA's are "Completely Automated Public Turing test &lt;strong&gt;to tell Computers and Humans Apart&lt;/strong&gt;" the emphasis obviously being distinguishing between humans and software which of course is what screen readers are.  The Carnegie Mellon University, the inventors of CAPTCHA, have publicised on their site &lt;a href="http://www.captcha.net/" rel="nofollow"&gt;captcha.net&lt;/a&gt; that they're trying to perfect audio CAPTCHA however it seems to me that maybe a different solution is needed altogether. Both visual and audio CAPTCHA's have problems which does give rise to the question of can accessibility and CAPTCHA really ever go hand in hand? 

I'm inclined to say that as spam is an industry wide problem and a problem for the Internet in general there needs to be industry wide collaboration to look at alternatives to for securing the web. In fact I read today that Dr Larry Roberts, who led the team that designed and developed the web's precursor, Arpanet, has warned that &lt;a href="http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2202272/internet-heading-fall-founder" rel="nofollow"&gt;the Internet is heading for a fall and there are serious issues around security and user authentication&lt;/a&gt;. Again, I think this points to the need for governments and industry to work together to solve the problem and not necessarily individual organisations. It would also help turn the tide of CAPTCHA's becoming the de facto security option of choice as Catherine pointed out.

Possible ways forward are &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID" rel="nofollow"&gt;openID's&lt;/a&gt;, certificates and passports and such. That said I am not a security specialist so couldn't comment on the issues around implementing these. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Karl,</p>
<p>Not being a security specialist and understanding all the issues, implications and problems involved in securing a system I&#8217;m not sure I can give a fully balanced reply (if there are any security bods out there I&#8217;d be interested to hear your views). What I can say is that from an accessibility perspective CAPTCHA doesn&#8217;t seem to be doing it for the user regardless of if you have a disability or not - Wilco&#8217;s comments about usability duly noted.</p>
<p>The problems really lie in the very essence of what CAPTCHA&#8217;s are &#8220;Completely Automated Public Turing test <strong>to tell Computers and Humans Apart</strong>&#8221; the emphasis obviously being distinguishing between humans and software which of course is what screen readers are.  The Carnegie Mellon University, the inventors of CAPTCHA, have publicised on their site <a href="http://www.captcha.net/" rel="nofollow">captcha.net</a> that they&#8217;re trying to perfect audio CAPTCHA however it seems to me that maybe a different solution is needed altogether. Both visual and audio CAPTCHA&#8217;s have problems which does give rise to the question of can accessibility and CAPTCHA really ever go hand in hand? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m inclined to say that as spam is an industry wide problem and a problem for the Internet in general there needs to be industry wide collaboration to look at alternatives to for securing the web. In fact I read today that Dr Larry Roberts, who led the team that designed and developed the web&#8217;s precursor, Arpanet, has warned that <a href="http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2202272/internet-heading-fall-founder" rel="nofollow">the Internet is heading for a fall and there are serious issues around security and user authentication</a>. Again, I think this points to the need for governments and industry to work together to solve the problem and not necessarily individual organisations. It would also help turn the tide of CAPTCHA&#8217;s becoming the de facto security option of choice as Catherine pointed out.</p>
<p>Possible ways forward are <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID" rel="nofollow">openID&#8217;s</a>, certificates and passports and such. That said I am not a security specialist so couldn&#8217;t comment on the issues around implementing these.</p>
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		<title>By: Catherine Turner</title>
		<link>http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-41836</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine Turner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.rnib.org.uk/wacblog/images/captcha-if-youre-names-not-down-youre-not-coming-in/#comment-41836</guid>
		<description>All in all it seems there isn't an ideal solution.  So I think the important thing to bear in mind as far as accessibility is concerned is that, whilst captcha is a pain for most people to one extent or another, for some people it means it is *impossible* for them to access the website/service.  So it's important for sites to have a way for those people to get help.  e.g. I had this problem when I signed up/first used FaceBook.  But, informed by other screen reader users who'd done the same, I e-mailed Customer Services and explained I used a screen reader and they removed the captcha from my account.  But last I looked they don't publish this/advise people who *can't* use captcha on what to do.  Plus I think others have not have positive responses when they've contacted Customer Services.  

It comes dpown to the need for sites/companies to think about how users use their sites and how, if necessary, they can provide an alternative way of accessing their services.  Too often it seems people treat their websites like some piece of abstract technology and not a means of providing services to/communicating with people - a means which should be complimented by other means.

One more point - Henny - "for every airline, ticketing or retail site that has CAPTCHA there’ll be another that doesn’t..." Maybe at the moment but captcha seems to becoming standard which is worrying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All in all it seems there isn&#8217;t an ideal solution.  So I think the important thing to bear in mind as far as accessibility is concerned is that, whilst captcha is a pain for most people to one extent or another, for some people it means it is *impossible* for them to access the website/service.  So it&#8217;s important for sites to have a way for those people to get help.  e.g. I had this problem when I signed up/first used FaceBook.  But, informed by other screen reader users who&#8217;d done the same, I e-mailed Customer Services and explained I used a screen reader and they removed the captcha from my account.  But last I looked they don&#8217;t publish this/advise people who *can&#8217;t* use captcha on what to do.  Plus I think others have not have positive responses when they&#8217;ve contacted Customer Services.  </p>
<p>It comes dpown to the need for sites/companies to think about how users use their sites and how, if necessary, they can provide an alternative way of accessing their services.  Too often it seems people treat their websites like some piece of abstract technology and not a means of providing services to/communicating with people - a means which should be complimented by other means.</p>
<p>One more point - Henny - &#8220;for every airline, ticketing or retail site that has CAPTCHA there’ll be another that doesn’t&#8230;&#8221; Maybe at the moment but captcha seems to becoming standard which is worrying.</p>
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