Comments on: Hidden barriers - bad language

By: Ben 'Cerbera' Millar

Ben 'Cerbera' Millar — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 20:55:58 +0000

I’ve commented on this in Absent lang on Root Element. Basically: I’m pretty sure the screen reader is wrong and is a sensible choice.

Responses on my comment should go here, since this is where the discussion is taking place.

By: Ben 'Cerbera' Millar

Ben 'Cerbera' Millar — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 04:13:05 +0000
I've written Absent lang on Root Element to get around the problem I was having. The code for that entry is what I was trying to use here earlier, except I wasn't including <p>. (Commenting on my comment should happen here, since this is where the discussion is taking place.) The comments here allow some HTML. But if you use an element which isn't allowed, some sort of Out of Cheese Error occurs on the server which results in a Connection was reset for the client. Commenting systems are difficult, so please don't take my niggle reports as criticisms. :)

By: Bim

Bim — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:45:39 +0000

Ok Jack, here’s the test, first we have the French language attribute applied to the tag,c’est la vie. Then we do the same thing using the tag, c’est la vie. This was originally done on a test page that was checked as valid XHTML Transitional, so if wordPress makes the attributes disappear, at least I know it’s not due to faulty code.

The audible output of both seems to be identical, which is what I would expect, I haven’t ever heard any tone changes due to using any specific element.

However, there are plenty of more experienced JAWS users out there than I am, Adrian, for example, perhaps one of you could answer the question: does JAWS give any tone indication that a piece of text has been given emphasis either by use of the element or the element??

By: JackP

JackP — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:01:49 +0000

Hmm. It obviously doesn’t work here: looking at the source, it appears that while the italic and emphasis elements have been retained, it has actually removed the language attributes inside ‘em both.

Bim - you couldn’t try knocking up a quick test of that could you, and let me know how it sounds?

By: JackP

JackP — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 14:59:20 +0000

Bim, I deliberately used i rather than em, because I wasn’t seeking to add emphasis: I was presuming that there would - for example - be an audible cue because of a change in accent or tone that c’est la vie was in french, and therefore I used i only to attempt to give an equivalent visual cue.

If I was attempting to add emphasis, then I would have used c’est la vie like so!

Hopefully, the screenreader will have pronounced both of them in french, but have added emphasis to the second…

By: Bim

Bim — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:24:06 +0000

Jack,, sorry, I didn’t comment on your technique about applying the LANG attribute to the element. Neat idea. giving a visual clue that the language is different. It might not be ideal for entire paragraphs, people with dyslexia find italics more difficult to read, but it’s a great idea for short phrases.

I didn’t notice any difference in the audible output tone though. I don’t know of any emphasis elements that do change screen reader tone, does anyone else?

By: Bim

Bim — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:10:27 +0000

Good post Adrian, and the point’s well made. If the page is coded as having the wrong natural language from the start, screen readers will mispronounce everything. It’s good that JAWS has an “ignore languages” setting, but I wonder if all of the screen readers have one.

By: Adrian Higginbotham

Adrian Higginbotham — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:51:56 +0000
and of course specifying the correct language in the first place is rather important, see my recent post re exactly this problem.

By: Bim

Bim — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:22:42 +0000

Erk, did you use any bad language? :) What I mean is did you use anything other than alpha numeric or standard punctuation ? If you’d like to e-mail me with the message I’ll see if there’s any reason within the message, and send back suggestions. My e-mail address is bim.egan@rnib.org.uk;

By: Ben 'Cerbera' Millar

Ben 'Cerbera' Millar — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:12:18 +0000

Gah, getting more “Connect was reset” errors when trying to reply to this article. :-(